I’m going to be the contrarian this time, LOL.
I brought up the detect magic to make a point. There is simply no BTB ruling as to whether a petrified target is "magical" stone or "regular" stone, either is compatible with the ability/spell as described, but neither is entailed by it. However, IF the petrified target is “magical” stone, then a dispel magic seems appropriate.
Abjuration magic is powerful, dispel magic can break polymorphs and ensorcellments. It only suppresses magic from items, but magic items were made with spells like wish and permanency, so I get that. Petrification is more like polymorphing to my mind, it’s a transformation of form, though a significant one as it changes the base material of that form, e.g. from organic flesh to inorganic stone. So it’s a big transformation, but it’s still just a transformation.
Petrification can be reversed and a character so transformed is not dead upon transformation back, the spell description for stone to flesh very clearly states that someone so transformed can be restored to life.
Think of it this way, stone to flesh cast on a regular statue doesn't animate it, but cast on a petrified victim it restores life. That suggests to me that it’s not just stone, and at the very least its somehow magical. The question Xab asked about the statue spell pointed to the possibility that a petrified target might detect as magic, that just got me thinking.
I'm not grokking the idea that basilisk and medusa and gorgon petrification is 'natural', not magical. Turning flesh to stone strikes me as magical. I know that’s TOTALLY ARBITRARY, but I can see a black dragon spewing its stomach acid as “natural”, or even a red dragon that has a gas producing organ and teeth that spark the stream as “natural”, but the GAZE of a monster, I’m just not feeling the “natural” on that.
All of this suggests to me that a petrified target is not just "regular stone", and thus that dispel magic should have the potential to work.
The other thing is that dispel magic adjusts with level. A 5th level MU casting dispel magic on a target petrified by the flesh to stone spell would have a 36% chance of success, and a system shock would still be required. And they have to "know" the spell and have it in their repertoire. What you would need to do however is specify comparison level for a basilisk, a medusa,etc. One suggestion is HD, but if you want to make it tough then say double HD, so for a basilisk the dispel magic would be against a 12th level of power, or triple it if you want to make it harder. Since dispel magic calibrates by counter spell level, and there are no listed spell levels for monsters, you can make it as hard or as easy as you want for this to work, so its possible to make it as “fair” as you want.
As for the “repeated instances” problem, Nagora’s solution would work, you could require a system shock even if the dispel fails to add some risk, you could just give one shot with dispel magic. Or you could petrify a character and have a minion smash off an arm with a maul or something, then they can cast their dispel magic. Or you could be really mean and say it works but only for a round (like it does with magic items), LOL.
Thing is, I’m not worried about “nerfing” petrification, I have often heard around here that things like petrification and level drain should be kept as strong as “players need to be afraid of something”. Well, if players are only afraid of petrification and level drain, they aren’t being challenged or they’re unduly confident. We have had 7 character fatalities in our campaign, they have come from raw melee damage, surprise, paralysis (twice), brain removal, electrocution and disintegration. There’s lot’s to be afraid of, giving your PC’s the ability to reverse something like this without a high level spell, as long as it isn’t a slam dunk, is perfectly fine IMHO.
There’s no right and wrong on this, whatever works for your game.
Cheers,
Ulan Dhor
Greetings all,
Need some interpretations on the following:
I know that the mage spell Flesh to Stone can be Dispelled (if a successful roll is made) since it is a magical effect. Obviously, the reverse of the same spell undoes the magick. However, there are various creatures that can employ unique attack forms in which the victim is rendered lithified, too, namely the following:
1) Beholder: Since this seems to be a spell-like effect, I assume that it can be nullified with a successful Dispel Magic.
2) Basilisk: Since it is a natural effect, is it possible to neutralize with a successful Dispel or not, thus requiring the wizard spell, Stone to Flesh?
3) Cockatrice: I would treat this as the aforementioned reptilian horror as a 'natural' attack mode
4) Medusa: same as both the Basilisk and Cockatrice.
Any others I missed? Probably quite a few. Would a successful Dispel Magic undo the effect on those creatures, too.
-Lanthorn the Curious
I think the pertinent question is, why does the 5th level stone to flesh spell even exist if petrification could be negated by a 3rd level dispel magic spell?
I think therein lies the answer, meaning that petrification effects cannot be dispelled. Petrification is just a more powerful effect, requiring a more powerful "cure". Seeing as the effect is the same, whether its origin is a spell or creature, the "cure" should be the same. This is a permanent transformation, and those are usually very powerful. Take polymorth other for instance. Sure, one can dispel it, but if one doesn't do so in a timely manner the mind of the victim will be gone (requiring a 9th level wish spell to restore!), and polymorph other is only a piddling 4th level spell mind you.
Keep your magic powerful, and keep the PCs fearful of those things they should be fearful of.
_________________
- Moderator/Admin/Member
Hey Lanthorn,
Glad to see your rule question have not gone away. I would rule that Dispel Magic can dispel recently cast or active spell effects, unless other wise determined by the spell. Unfortunately Flesh to Stone does not elaborate on these specifics.
So you have one of several options.
A. Dispel Magic is an opposed roll versus not only the caster level of the spell cast, but also the difference in power level of the spell. Example: Fagen is turned to stone by the flesh to stone spell. The DM rules the effective caster level is 14 and since fleash to stone is 3 levelss higher then the dispel magic spell is grants a - 3 penalty to the dispelling effect. Hence the modified caster level is 17. This makes lower level spells more likely to be dispelled and higher level spells lesss likely to be dispelled.
One can also rule that in some cases the effective caster level may be beyond the ability of the mage, looking to dispel the effect. This would be an exception to the rule that one always has a chance to dispel or hit something.
B. If the ability clearly states a spell-like effect allow the dispel magic to take effect as listed in the 2e rule set or as example A above or by using the reverse of the spell. If the effect is natural one may rule that the blood of the creature that caused the effect must be used to cast the reversal spell or it will have no effect. Making for a more difficult reversal and interesting rescue mission.
C. Dispel magic will temporarily change the creature back for 1d4 rounds when the duration expires this makes the creature roll two system shock rolls one for being turned back to flesh and another for being turned back to stone. The reversal spell works as listed by 2e rules or as example A above.
D. Dispel magic does not work against natural and spell like effects which exceed 3rd level nor does the reverse of the spell work on natural abilities of certain creature though it does cancel spell-like powers aka beholder eye ray. However, natural affects are permanent and cannot be dispelled or reversed short of a wish.
Each of these are options you can use. Depending on your style of play, though I'm a bigger fan of reversal spells then a straight dispel magic.
I hope this helps.
Agreed, and funny had this exact question come about last week, I ruled it similar to "magic jar" the soul is trapped and unaware of the passage of time. It can, however, strike out at passers by just as in the spell. (I set the range as 10'/lvl) The fundamental difference being the garden statuary is the container instead of a gem. It certainly gives interesting possibilities for future "trap applications".
IMOC a ranger was petrified by some cockatrice. later (much later) to be found by an NPC that reversed the spell via StF and to warn him on her departure that she wont always be available to help him from his blunders. The ranger is now faced with the quandary of how much time has really past.. wont know till he gets to a town or other point of reference.
I brought up the detect magic to make a point. There is simply no BTB ruling as to whether a petrified target is "magical" stone or "regular" stone, either is compatible with the ability/spell as described, but neither is entailed by it. However, IF the petrified target is “magical” stone, then a dispel magic seems appropriate.
Abjuration magic is powerful, dispel magic can break polymorphs and ensorcellments. It only suppresses magic from items, but magic items were made with spells like wish and permanency, so I get that. Petrification is more like polymorphing to my mind, it’s a transformation of form, though a significant one as it changes the base material of that form, e.g. from organic flesh to inorganic stone. So it’s a big transformation, but it’s still just a transformation.
Petrification can be reversed and a character so transformed is not dead upon transformation back, the spell description for stone to flesh very clearly states that someone so transformed can be restored to life.
Think of it this way, stone to flesh cast on a regular statue doesn't animate it, but cast on a petrified victim it restores life. That suggests to me that it’s not just stone, and at the very least its somehow magical. The question Xab asked about the statue spell pointed to the possibility that a petrified target might detect as magic, that just got me thinking.
I'm not grokking the idea that basilisk and medusa and gorgon petrification is 'natural', not magical. Turning flesh to stone strikes me as magical. I know that’s TOTALLY ARBITRARY, but I can see a black dragon spewing its stomach acid as “natural”, or even a red dragon that has a gas producing organ and teeth that spark the stream as “natural”, but the GAZE of a monster, I’m just not feeling the “natural” on that.
All of this suggests to me that a petrified target is not just "regular stone", and thus that dispel magic should have the potential to work.
The other thing is that dispel magic adjusts with level. A 5th level MU casting dispel magic on a target petrified by the flesh to stone spell would have a 36% chance of success, and a system shock would still be required. And they have to "know" the spell and have it in their repertoire. What you would need to do however is specify comparison level for a basilisk, a medusa,etc. One suggestion is HD, but if you want to make it tough then say double HD, so for a basilisk the dispel magic would be against a 12th level of power, or triple it if you want to make it harder. Since dispel magic calibrates by counter spell level, and there are no listed spell levels for monsters, you can make it as hard or as easy as you want for this to work, so its possible to make it as “fair” as you want.
As for the “repeated instances” problem, Nagora’s solution would work, you could require a system shock even if the dispel fails to add some risk, you could just give one shot with dispel magic. Or you could petrify a character and have a minion smash off an arm with a maul or something, then they can cast their dispel magic. Or you could be really mean and say it works but only for a round (like it does with magic items), LOL.
Thing is, I’m not worried about “nerfing” petrification, I have often heard around here that things like petrification and level drain should be kept as strong as “players need to be afraid of something”. Well, if players are only afraid of petrification and level drain, they aren’t being challenged or they’re unduly confident. We have had 7 character fatalities in our campaign, they have come from raw melee damage, surprise, paralysis (twice), brain removal, electrocution and disintegration. There’s lot’s to be afraid of, giving your PC’s the ability to reverse something like this without a high level spell, as long as it isn’t a slam dunk, is perfectly fine IMHO.
There’s no right and wrong on this, whatever works for your game.
Cheers,
Ulan Dhor
Greetings all,
Need some interpretations on the following:
I know that the mage spell Flesh to Stone can be Dispelled (if a successful roll is made) since it is a magical effect. Obviously, the reverse of the same spell undoes the magick. However, there are various creatures that can employ unique attack forms in which the victim is rendered lithified, too, namely the following:
1) Beholder: Since this seems to be a spell-like effect, I assume that it can be nullified with a successful Dispel Magic.
2) Basilisk: Since it is a natural effect, is it possible to neutralize with a successful Dispel or not, thus requiring the wizard spell, Stone to Flesh?
3) Cockatrice: I would treat this as the aforementioned reptilian horror as a 'natural' attack mode
4) Medusa: same as both the Basilisk and Cockatrice.
Any others I missed? Probably quite a few. Would a successful Dispel Magic undo the effect on those creatures, too.
-Lanthorn the Curious
 Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:52 pm Post subject: |  |
| I am reluctant to say that Dispel Magic would work since the petrifications described are instantaneous in occurrance (save immediately on occurring) where there is a casting time for the Dispel magic even if cast during the same round. Further, if cast after the effect, there is no "magic" to dispel as the person petrified is stone, wears like normal stone, etc... for purposes a rock.. no radiating magic. 2e Dispel magic would be able to do the work of 6th level Stone to Flesh? humm seems no reason to learn the StF if I can do it with dispel magic? It could be ruled that the Dispel Magic could temporarily render the innate ability of the creature disrupted, but I don't think it can "undo" the effect if it has already occurred. Although it might temporarily leave the spell effect non-operational since that is a DM call (akin to casting on a bag of holding or ring) if cast specifically on one person that had been petrified. Though even with such a ruling, I would also say that the dispel in such cases wears off leaving the victim stone once again. | |
| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:47 am Post subject: | |
| My understanding of Dispel Magic is that it can be used to remove permanent magical effects. My main curiosity is if this spell can only be used on the FtS effects that are inherently described as magical in nature (like the Beholder and mage spell) ONLY...or it it could also negate the FtS 'natural' abilities of the cockatrice, medusa, and the like... -Lanthorn | |
I think the pertinent question is, why does the 5th level stone to flesh spell even exist if petrification could be negated by a 3rd level dispel magic spell?
I think therein lies the answer, meaning that petrification effects cannot be dispelled. Petrification is just a more powerful effect, requiring a more powerful "cure". Seeing as the effect is the same, whether its origin is a spell or creature, the "cure" should be the same. This is a permanent transformation, and those are usually very powerful. Take polymorth other for instance. Sure, one can dispel it, but if one doesn't do so in a timely manner the mind of the victim will be gone (requiring a 9th level wish spell to restore!), and polymorph other is only a piddling 4th level spell mind you.
Keep your magic powerful, and keep the PCs fearful of those things they should be fearful of.
_________________
- Moderator/Admin/Member
Hey Lanthorn,
Glad to see your rule question have not gone away. I would rule that Dispel Magic can dispel recently cast or active spell effects, unless other wise determined by the spell. Unfortunately Flesh to Stone does not elaborate on these specifics.
So you have one of several options.
A. Dispel Magic is an opposed roll versus not only the caster level of the spell cast, but also the difference in power level of the spell. Example: Fagen is turned to stone by the flesh to stone spell. The DM rules the effective caster level is 14 and since fleash to stone is 3 levelss higher then the dispel magic spell is grants a - 3 penalty to the dispelling effect. Hence the modified caster level is 17. This makes lower level spells more likely to be dispelled and higher level spells lesss likely to be dispelled.
One can also rule that in some cases the effective caster level may be beyond the ability of the mage, looking to dispel the effect. This would be an exception to the rule that one always has a chance to dispel or hit something.
B. If the ability clearly states a spell-like effect allow the dispel magic to take effect as listed in the 2e rule set or as example A above or by using the reverse of the spell. If the effect is natural one may rule that the blood of the creature that caused the effect must be used to cast the reversal spell or it will have no effect. Making for a more difficult reversal and interesting rescue mission.
C. Dispel magic will temporarily change the creature back for 1d4 rounds when the duration expires this makes the creature roll two system shock rolls one for being turned back to flesh and another for being turned back to stone. The reversal spell works as listed by 2e rules or as example A above.
D. Dispel magic does not work against natural and spell like effects which exceed 3rd level nor does the reverse of the spell work on natural abilities of certain creature though it does cancel spell-like powers aka beholder eye ray. However, natural affects are permanent and cannot be dispelled or reversed short of a wish.
Each of these are options you can use. Depending on your style of play, though I'm a bigger fan of reversal spells then a straight dispel magic.
I hope this helps.
| Argon! Yes, my friend, I continue to post my rules and gaming mechanics queries for which I am so (in)famous! Please continue to browse, as I no doubt will resurface with others. I am somewhat caught in the middle between your stance and that taken by Cebrion. On one hand I completely understand how allowing a Stone to Flesh to be Dispelled may undermine the potency of the magical effect, as Cebrion has noted. This would mean that only wizards, who have the reversed spell in their repertoire, could have any chance of assisting an effected victim. There is no chance for clerics to be of aid, even those with Elemental Earth sphere, as I see no listing in any of my many tomes where priests can turn someone to stone or vice versa (though, gruesomely, I guess they could turn a stoned victim into a pile of oozing mud...).  On the other hand, I think that spell-like effects, as noted clearly by the Beholder description, should be under the domain of a successful Dispel Magic though it would be difficult given a Beholder's 'level.' Perhaps "innate" petrification effects, as those noted for a Medusa, Basilisk, and Cockatrice, fall outside this domain, however. As such, I could see where a Dispel Magic would be utterly useless, and a mage's Stone to Flesh spell is the only 'cure.' As an interesting sidenote, I am under the impression that a victim's spiritual essence must somehow be in limbo, or tied/anchored to the affected "stoned" individual. Otherwise, upon reversing the effect, all you'd get is a corpse!  I appreciate everyone's input, and welcome any more. |
Agreed, and funny had this exact question come about last week, I ruled it similar to "magic jar" the soul is trapped and unaware of the passage of time. It can, however, strike out at passers by just as in the spell. (I set the range as 10'/lvl) The fundamental difference being the garden statuary is the container instead of a gem. It certainly gives interesting possibilities for future "trap applications".
IMOC a ranger was petrified by some cockatrice. later (much later) to be found by an NPC that reversed the spell via StF and to warn him on her departure that she wont always be available to help him from his blunders. The ranger is now faced with the quandary of how much time has really past.. wont know till he gets to a town or other point of reference.
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